It has been good seeing all the support units being put in the communique's as they will be needed for when Federation Admiral comes out. My group has tried a couple times to do some kind of campaign for Fed Com, but the repair rules always gave us troubles as ships can practically rebuild themselves. Since i came from SFB, this has always bugged me. Even though it has only small effects in an individual scenario.
One thing about the FRD that makes me wonder is that it just has a high damage control that can be used on other units. While this is a simple and easy solution, it seems to easy for me. It really bothers me that the FRD does not degrade in operations if it takes damage. It can have no functioning internal boxes but still operates at full capacity for repairing. I feel it should at least cost some power (mirroring SFB) to do these repairs. THe FRD does have 44 power after all (more than an unaugmented battle station) and not so much to spend for weapons (don't get close enough to let it tractor you!). As it is the FRD will get blown up before it loses enough power to really matter.
Base/Battle Stations and Starbases are also forward repair points and their ship repair rules would need to function pretty mush the same as the FRD.
Again, coming from SFB gives me preconceptions of how i think things would work in FC. So just having a high damage control that works on other ships for no power doesn't seem right to me. Rather than put all those repair boxes back on the ship card (i know changing them is a no-no) maybe make that high damage control cost a couple points power/repair point is something that can/should be done. And in that case it might need the base damge rules as well or it won't really matter as it will get blown up first.
I don't get around to playing FC as much as i would like to, so i haven't tried any of this out yet, but i plan to some day. Sorry for the long rambling post, just wanted to get my thought out there.
Repair/FRD operations thoughts
Moderators: mjwest, Albiegamer
When doing the repair rules, the intent was to keep the rules as simple as possible. If we need to add a power component, then so be it. I'll have to ask Steve about that, though. I would imagine that a power component might as well be pretty steep, so let's assume a point of power per repair point used. Power is only required to use a unit's repair points on a different unit. And, combined with letting FRDs use (3D6), their power totals should go all the way down as it takes damage.
And, yes, bases should be able to use FRD repair rules. We won't be increasing their repair points, but they should be able to use the same rules. (Including a power cost, if any is added.) Note that only military Base Stations and larger can use the FRD repair rules. Civilian Base Stations and smaller cannot.
(Note that the answers in the Rules section are rulings. The answers here are thoughts about what we can do to address the issues raised. I need to check with Steve on these. Well, all of them, but the others I am confident of.)
And, yes, bases should be able to use FRD repair rules. We won't be increasing their repair points, but they should be able to use the same rules. (Including a power cost, if any is added.) Note that only military Base Stations and larger can use the FRD repair rules. Civilian Base Stations and smaller cannot.
(Note that the answers in the Rules section are rulings. The answers here are thoughts about what we can do to address the issues raised. I need to check with Steve on these. Well, all of them, but the others I am confident of.)
Federation Commander Answer Guy
Here's a thought to add to the mix.
When ships do repairs during combat (a scenario), they are jury-rigging and trying everything they can to get those damaged systems back online. That type of repair job may last over the short term through a battle, but the systems would need a much more thorough repair job before they could be relied upon to function over the long term, such as through a campaign or on an extended mission.
Repair docks and bases would be the facilities where that type of trustworthy, long term repair work would be done.
Frankly, I don't see how a ship could undergo that type of extensive repair within the parameters of a single scenario. Even though no time frame has been established for the length of one game turn in Federation Commander (at least, none to my knowledge), since it is a streamlined cousin of SFB, it would not seem to be out of the question to assume a game turn takes about 30 seconds as it does in SFB(?). After a ship docks, how many turns would it take to do the kind of repair work that docks and bases would do? Or perhaps they would also simply be doing the quickie jury-rig jobs under those circumstances, too.
If "in-scenario" repairs done by a dock or base are the same type as done by a ship on its own, then to reflect a loss of repair ability as damage is taken, here are some options.
1. The dock/base pays energy points equal to the repair points it uses on the docked ship. This is not in line with the existing repair rules, so it could be justified in the special case of docks/bases because their workers and robots would need power to get their work done.
Or
2. Leave things as they are as far as repairs go, but somehow tie the repair capacity of the dock/base with damage it takes. Perhaps since the power generating ability of the base/dock would be closely linked to its repair capability, establish some simple ratio between loss of repair point capacity and loss of power. It could be 1-to-1 or 2-to-1 until repair points reach 0, or it could be some ratio after so many power points are lost.
Just some thoughts about the issue. I'm just a creative writer, not an engineer!
When ships do repairs during combat (a scenario), they are jury-rigging and trying everything they can to get those damaged systems back online. That type of repair job may last over the short term through a battle, but the systems would need a much more thorough repair job before they could be relied upon to function over the long term, such as through a campaign or on an extended mission.
Repair docks and bases would be the facilities where that type of trustworthy, long term repair work would be done.
Frankly, I don't see how a ship could undergo that type of extensive repair within the parameters of a single scenario. Even though no time frame has been established for the length of one game turn in Federation Commander (at least, none to my knowledge), since it is a streamlined cousin of SFB, it would not seem to be out of the question to assume a game turn takes about 30 seconds as it does in SFB(?). After a ship docks, how many turns would it take to do the kind of repair work that docks and bases would do? Or perhaps they would also simply be doing the quickie jury-rig jobs under those circumstances, too.
If "in-scenario" repairs done by a dock or base are the same type as done by a ship on its own, then to reflect a loss of repair ability as damage is taken, here are some options.
1. The dock/base pays energy points equal to the repair points it uses on the docked ship. This is not in line with the existing repair rules, so it could be justified in the special case of docks/bases because their workers and robots would need power to get their work done.
Or
2. Leave things as they are as far as repairs go, but somehow tie the repair capacity of the dock/base with damage it takes. Perhaps since the power generating ability of the base/dock would be closely linked to its repair capability, establish some simple ratio between loss of repair point capacity and loss of power. It could be 1-to-1 or 2-to-1 until repair points reach 0, or it could be some ratio after so many power points are lost.
Just some thoughts about the issue. I'm just a creative writer, not an engineer!
Last edited by Mike on Mon Sep 01, 2014 2:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mike
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Sandpaper gets the job done, but makes for a lot of friction.
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Sandpaper gets the job done, but makes for a lot of friction.
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Sebastian380
- Lieutenant SG
- Posts: 163
- Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 7:55 pm
- Location: Toronto, Canada
Off memory, I think that 10-12 rounds of damage control repairs roughly the same amount of damage that is repairable in campaign mode in SFB Admiral's Game.
So, if a battle last 5 rounds, the survivors have 5-7 (I prefer 10 rounds of repair because its easier to remember) or repair left to fix any damage.
Any damage beyond that must be repaired by a base or FRD. If a player can prove that they had unused dmg ctrl points during combat (ie, they took the time to track them) they get them too.
This works partly because we start our battles well within weapons range, so the engagement starts with shots being fired during turn 1 and 2, and things degenerating from there.
I would allow frame to be repaired like armor, if only so that we have less damage to track in the campaign.
So, if a battle last 5 rounds, the survivors have 5-7 (I prefer 10 rounds of repair because its easier to remember) or repair left to fix any damage.
Any damage beyond that must be repaired by a base or FRD. If a player can prove that they had unused dmg ctrl points during combat (ie, they took the time to track them) they get them too.
This works partly because we start our battles well within weapons range, so the engagement starts with shots being fired during turn 1 and 2, and things degenerating from there.
I would allow frame to be repaired like armor, if only so that we have less damage to track in the campaign.
One thing to keep in mind is that there are some massive differences between "in-game" repairs and "between scenario" repairs. Such that any repairs done within the context of an active scenario are "temporary" repairs, whether done by the ship itself or by an FRD. The only "permanent" repairs are those done between scenarios.
Think of it this way: It takes hours, even with the correct equipment and resources and parts, to permanently fix a system. A scenario is way less than that time-wise, and yet significantly more repairs are being done. Therefore, those repairs done during a scenario are simply temporary, even when done with an FRD. After the fight, assuming ship and FRD survive, the ship is going to have to go back into the FRD and get that stuff fixed for real.
Currently, there are no rules for between scenario repairs. There are various suggestions on how to do it, and the SFB campaign rules provide a foundation of what it should look like, but, really, those rules don't exist. And the in-scenario FRD repair rules are not, in any way, representative of those "missing" rules.
EDIT: That is not to say the rules shouldn't be adjusted. The more I think about it, the more the idea of a power cost to fix a docked unit seems to make sense. But that still results in "temporary" repairs, not permanent ones.
And I don't think it is a good idea to add frame damage repairs to the FRD rules. Frame damage should only be able to be repaired with permanent between scenario repairs, not in-game repairs. That would just take to long for the context of a scenario.
Think of it this way: It takes hours, even with the correct equipment and resources and parts, to permanently fix a system. A scenario is way less than that time-wise, and yet significantly more repairs are being done. Therefore, those repairs done during a scenario are simply temporary, even when done with an FRD. After the fight, assuming ship and FRD survive, the ship is going to have to go back into the FRD and get that stuff fixed for real.
Currently, there are no rules for between scenario repairs. There are various suggestions on how to do it, and the SFB campaign rules provide a foundation of what it should look like, but, really, those rules don't exist. And the in-scenario FRD repair rules are not, in any way, representative of those "missing" rules.
EDIT: That is not to say the rules shouldn't be adjusted. The more I think about it, the more the idea of a power cost to fix a docked unit seems to make sense. But that still results in "temporary" repairs, not permanent ones.
And I don't think it is a good idea to add frame damage repairs to the FRD rules. Frame damage should only be able to be repaired with permanent between scenario repairs, not in-game repairs. That would just take to long for the context of a scenario.
Federation Commander Answer Guy
That's was sort of how we used to go in our campaigns - if you were damaged in one scenario then you started damaged in the next one, irrespective of damcon. Duct tape and cannibalizing parts got you through a scenario but would only last long enough for that fight. Real repairs had to be done behind the lines in safety and took the ship out of the OOB temporarily.
Lee -
We used your system in our Early Years campaign and I quite liked it. The players not so much. I liked it because a) it was easy to administer and track; and b) once damaged - even minimally, players would hustle the ship out of the line and send it back to a repair base - often tying up another cruiser if a tug was not available.
The main thing the players disliked about it was that they felt that damaged systems should remain damaged systems, and as gamemaster, it was my job to track it for them. Also, they would periodically try to game the system a bit, lengthening a battle to give more time for repairs and hopefully get under the 4x Dmg Ctrl threshold - particularly with their own ships and in duels. When we got to fleet actions, ships tended to get wrecked pretty quickly.
-Peter (rfeceo)
We used your system in our Early Years campaign and I quite liked it. The players not so much. I liked it because a) it was easy to administer and track; and b) once damaged - even minimally, players would hustle the ship out of the line and send it back to a repair base - often tying up another cruiser if a tug was not available.
The main thing the players disliked about it was that they felt that damaged systems should remain damaged systems, and as gamemaster, it was my job to track it for them. Also, they would periodically try to game the system a bit, lengthening a battle to give more time for repairs and hopefully get under the 4x Dmg Ctrl threshold - particularly with their own ships and in duels. When we got to fleet actions, ships tended to get wrecked pretty quickly.
-Peter (rfeceo)
The easy to administer was the main part for me. I was a player as much as the others, and whilst I did most of the tracking I wasn't a gamesmaster as such, so wasn't going to start tracking every fiddly detail.
Minimal damage we found didn't cause players to send a ship back for repairs unless it was unlikely to be needed anyway, but there comes a point where the damage is enough to make keeping it on the line risky.
Over time we played around with a few adjustments - we tried tracking frame as something seperate, that couldn't be repaired on the front line, and with different thresholds for damage.
Any system will have it downsides and plus points. But I agree with what was said earlier - a campaign should probably differentiate between mid battle (damcon) repairs and proper back to base repairs.
Minimal damage we found didn't cause players to send a ship back for repairs unless it was unlikely to be needed anyway, but there comes a point where the damage is enough to make keeping it on the line risky.
Over time we played around with a few adjustments - we tried tracking frame as something seperate, that couldn't be repaired on the front line, and with different thresholds for damage.
Any system will have it downsides and plus points. But I agree with what was said earlier - a campaign should probably differentiate between mid battle (damcon) repairs and proper back to base repairs.
