ISC Strike/Light Cruiser

[Bolo_MK_XL]

If you can use 2 BBs, why couldn't you use a single little CS ---

[Nerroth]

As a point of comparison, the SFB CS has a BPV of 155, relative to the 145 of the CL.

Not sure about the DNT, though; but as a further point of comparison, the all-plasma DNP from Module R7 has a BPV of 260, compared to the all-PPD DN's 280. Maybe the DNT is somewhere in between (270, perhaps)?

[mojo jojo]

It seems that SFB values the difference at 5 pts per PPD. I'm concerned that this is too low for FC. The PPD is way better than in SFB, and the PL-S isn't as effective as SFB.

[DirkSJ]

It seems that SFB values the difference at 5 pts per PPD. I'm concerned that this is too low for FC. The PPD is way better than in SFB, and the PL-S isn't as effective as SFB.

PPD is more effective though there are no overloads for it any longer and it hits or misses in a more definite way. Perhaps that factored in to the discussion to lower it's points?

[DirkSJ]

The question of PPDs expected number of pulses at each range bothered me so I wrote a spreadsheet to roll several hundred thousand dice and look at averages.

Tests using non-overloaded PPDs (4 pulses).
Data collected across 20,000 samples as "average number of pulses hitting".
Sample taken repeatedly to determine range of results.

Range 4-10:
SFB method: 94.9 - 95.1% of pulses hit
FC method: 92.8 - 93.2% of pulses hit
Difference: ~2% more miss

Range 11-15:
SFB method: 90.3 - 90.8% of pulses hit
FC method: 85.9 - 86.4% of pulses hit
Difference: ~4.5% more miss

Range 16-20:
SFB method: 82.4 - 83.0% of pulses hit
FC method: 75.9 - 76.7% of pulses hit
Difference: ~6.5% more miss

Range 21-25:
SFB method: 68.8 - 69.5% of pulses hit
FC method: 63.4 - 64.3% of pulses hit
Difference: ~5.3% more miss

The PPD lost accuracy and overload. That may be the source of some of the lack of point difference. This was just a fast brute force method. I suppose I could work out the actual mathematical probabilities. If I get bored I will.

[DirkSJ]

I'm a nerd with too much time on my hands. Actual math working out the true probabilities.

Code: Select all

Expected hit FC	Expected hit SFB	Diff
93.05555556	    95.00385802	     1.948302469
86.11111111	    90.4418629	      4.330751791
76.38888889	    82.68108603	     6.292197145
63.88888889	    69.05261381	     5.163724923

My estimates were pretty close.

[mojo jojo]

The problem is that in FC, all 4 pulses will hit the same facing shield immediately. In SFB, the opponent can take countermeasures and can turn another shield towards the PPD or possibly even get out of firing arc before the last pulses hit. Losing overload is also meaningless since it's virtually impossible to hit more than 4 times between range 4-8 anyway, except vs something like a base.

[terryoc]

I think the points thing was a way of "splitting the difference" between two almost identical ships, so you could put them both on the same Ship Card.

If you can use 2 BBs, why couldn't you use a single little CS ---

You can't, 2 BBs would have 8 PPDs and require six other ships to accompany them. You could fly 1 BB under Mike's ruling though, if you're into BB duels.

[Bolo_MK_XL]

terry,

You missed what I was trying to get across ---

The rules allow 2 BBs on one side in a game (not necessarily ISC),
if that is possible, why not a lowly CS with multiple PPDs --

[Steve Cole]

A few random answers....

The points are what they are. There are no adjustments. We split the difference.

I'm not sure on the "always use a single ship" thing. I want to go look something up. Usuaully, the ISC used the torpedo ships for lone patroles and kept the PPD ships in echelons.

Two BBs, yes, for most people. I'd have to go do some digging about the ISC. I'm not sure if the PPD limit supercedes. They can use BBs as part of a fleet, but I don't think they use them alone.

That said, and pending further research, anything your opponent agrees to is ok, but he doesn't have to agree.

[mojo jojo]

I don't agree with this ruling that the points are equal between the ships since the weapon capabilities are clearly not equal, but I will accept it and use it if I ever run an ISC fleet.

[terryoc]

terry,

You missed what I was trying to get across ---

The rules allow 2 BBs on one side in a game (not necessarily ISC),
if that is possible, why not a lowly CS with multiple PPDs --

Two BBs vs one CS wouldn't be a very fair match-up!

[Nerroth]

Maybe there could be some sort of plasma variant BB (or BBL, perhaps) for the ISC to use in larger battles?


Also, in terms of lone patrols, the PPD-armed Star Cruiser was described as a ship often sent out in this manner; but it is still more of a mixed-weapon ship than the CS would be. (Plus there's no CAT in FC yet to use in place of the CA, if you didn't want the PPD used...)

[terryoc]

Gary, the CS violates the letter of the rule because it has 2 PPDs and if it's patrolling alone, that's more PPDs than ships. The Star Cruiser only has one PPD, so it's OK to be in duels or as an echelon core ship.

As for the BB-plasma, I'd always prefer the BB-PPD. The Gorns already have a hugemungous plasma boat if I want to play a big plasma BB. I don't see the BBP as adding much to hte game.

[Sir Drake]

Ship/weapon limits thought this is FC, not SFB. Got to say I don't like seeing this stuff starting to show up FC. Sure you can say "you don't have to play that way" but see how well that worked for SFB. Hope it's not a trend.

P.S. I feel the same about WCs also, but that dosn't come up much