The only difference is that if Ship A tractors friendly Ship B, then Ship B cannot fire weapons in the Offensive Fire Phase, and cannot launch seeking weapons in the Launch Phase.junior wrote:The rules for tractoring a friendly ship work differently than the rules for tractoring a hostile ship. Unfortunately I don't remember them off the top of my head and I don't have my rule book handy to double check them.
Tractors and turn modes
Moderators: mjwest, Albiegamer
Federation Commander Answer Guy
So, if two friendlies with the same speed and same baseline cost tractor each other, their speed is reduced to 0 as long as they remain tractored?
That still costs each ship only 1 energy point. If they were moving at 24, it would cost them 3 points apiece to decel and not move at all during an Impulse.
That still costs each ship only 1 energy point. If they were moving at 24, it would cost them 3 points apiece to decel and not move at all during an Impulse.
Correct, however they have far more movement options, too.Mike wrote:So, if two friendlies with the same speed and same baseline cost tractor each other, their speed is reduced to 0 as long as they remain tractored?
That still costs each ship only 1 energy point. If they were moving at 24, it would cost them 3 points apiece to decel and not move at all during an Impulse.
When they are decelerating, they can turn when they are eligible to. So, if they had already moved three hexes, they turn in sub-pulse three. Also, they can elect to not decelerate if things change. And, of course, they don't use a tractor.
When they are tractored, only one ship may accelerate that IMPULSE. The other ship may not accelerate, and thus, may not turn. It costs double movement to accelerate, too. Assuming both are heavy cruisers, that means they are burning two points of energy for the acceleration. (In fact, if the movement rate of the two ships is 1, then the two ships combined would only save one point of energy.)
I am NOT saying this is a worthless tactic. Far from it; I could see it being used. However, it is not a game breaking tactic, either. It gives some advantages while imposing disadvantages. All told, I think this tactic will have a fairly narrow range of use. (That is not an insult.)
I am not seeing a problem here. I am, however, seeing the beginnings of a tactics note ...
Federation Commander Answer Guy
I didn't take your explanation as any kind of insult. Perhaps you were joking about that.
As a matter of fact, I appreciated your clear explanation of the entire concept.
If you want to write a tactics note about using mutual tractors to force a speed 0 situation for two friendly ships until whenever they want to resume normal movement during a Turn, go right ahead. I'm not interested in writing such a thing. My main interest is in writing scenarios and perhaps a little fiction that goes with THE GAME.
Which reminds me, I hope the pieces I submitted didn't get lost during the ADB move to the new building...
As a matter of fact, I appreciated your clear explanation of the entire concept.
If you want to write a tactics note about using mutual tractors to force a speed 0 situation for two friendly ships until whenever they want to resume normal movement during a Turn, go right ahead. I'm not interested in writing such a thing. My main interest is in writing scenarios and perhaps a little fiction that goes with THE GAME.
Which reminds me, I hope the pieces I submitted didn't get lost during the ADB move to the new building...
No, I was serious. It is hard to get the right "inflection" using text, and I didn't want it to sound like I was saying the tactic was worthless.Mike wrote:I didn't take your explanation as any kind of insult. Perhaps you were joking about that.
If you send something to Steve and do not get a response in a week or so (sometimes only a couple days, depending on deadlines and such), send him a followup email.Which reminds me, I hope the pieces I submitted didn't get lost during the ADB move to the new building...
Federation Commander Answer Guy
Does anyone have any examples of such actions? I thought an enemy ship being tractored was under no restrictions as per (5D6c).junior wrote:The reasons that the Frigate might grab the Battleship in such a situation include
...
3.) Keep the Battleship from performing one of several actions that cannot be performed if the ship has been tractored.
I know that his manoeuvre will be more restricted, but that's about it, surely?
A few new tractor questions, if I may.
1) Ship A is Speed 24, Ship B is Speed 16. They are both move cost 1.
Ship A tractors Ship B and, because it spent 24 points on movement, controls the movement of the linked pair. So far, so good.
Ship A now performs an emergency decel, for whatever reason.
Who now controls the movement? Ship A did spend more points on movement, even though he later got some of it back [for shield reinforcement only], through ED. And if Ship B controls the movement, speed will be 8, yes? because his baseline speed is reduced one level...
2) What is the upper and lower limit for tractoring terrain features? You cannot tractor planets or moons (5D3a), but you can tractor asteroids (6B5e) to tow them. I take it that asteroid hexes in and of themselves cannot be tractored; they're just dust and pebbles. So tractoring an asteroid hex would not slow your ship down, whereas tractoring a medium asteroid like in The Coming of the Meteor or like the Tholians do, will indeed slow the ship. Am I right here?
3) When tractoring a medium asteroid as in (6B5e), I assume that the 8 points has to be applied over the entire turn? Or can I apply the 8 points in one impulse and move the rock and thereby have done with it?
4) If I'm being tractored early in the turn, and use negative tractor, does that negative tractor power stay with me for the rest of the turn even if I lost the auction? And can I add more power to the negative tractor later?
For example, Ship A tractors Ship B, and there is an auction. Ship A spends three points on tractor, Ship B spends 2. Result: Ship B is tractored. Ship A then releases Ship B, who is then subject to a tractor attempt later in the turn by Ship C. As I understand things, Ship C needs to apply three points of tractor energy to establish a tractor beam at that point. Now let's say Ship B wants to avoid that tractor; can he now apply an extra point of neg tractor to his already existing two points, meaning that Ship C now has to apply four points to establish the tractor?
5) Can you 'switch off' negative tractor power? For example, in the example above, the unfortunate Ship B suffered a lot of damage at the hands of Ship A, and an allied ship, Ship D, wants to tractor Ship B away and out of danger. Does Ship D have to apply more tractor power than Ship B's neg tractor power, or can Ship B 'switch off' [and thereby lose] his negative tractor power?
1) Ship A is Speed 24, Ship B is Speed 16. They are both move cost 1.
Ship A tractors Ship B and, because it spent 24 points on movement, controls the movement of the linked pair. So far, so good.
Ship A now performs an emergency decel, for whatever reason.
Who now controls the movement? Ship A did spend more points on movement, even though he later got some of it back [for shield reinforcement only], through ED. And if Ship B controls the movement, speed will be 8, yes? because his baseline speed is reduced one level...
2) What is the upper and lower limit for tractoring terrain features? You cannot tractor planets or moons (5D3a), but you can tractor asteroids (6B5e) to tow them. I take it that asteroid hexes in and of themselves cannot be tractored; they're just dust and pebbles. So tractoring an asteroid hex would not slow your ship down, whereas tractoring a medium asteroid like in The Coming of the Meteor or like the Tholians do, will indeed slow the ship. Am I right here?
3) When tractoring a medium asteroid as in (6B5e), I assume that the 8 points has to be applied over the entire turn? Or can I apply the 8 points in one impulse and move the rock and thereby have done with it?
4) If I'm being tractored early in the turn, and use negative tractor, does that negative tractor power stay with me for the rest of the turn even if I lost the auction? And can I add more power to the negative tractor later?
For example, Ship A tractors Ship B, and there is an auction. Ship A spends three points on tractor, Ship B spends 2. Result: Ship B is tractored. Ship A then releases Ship B, who is then subject to a tractor attempt later in the turn by Ship C. As I understand things, Ship C needs to apply three points of tractor energy to establish a tractor beam at that point. Now let's say Ship B wants to avoid that tractor; can he now apply an extra point of neg tractor to his already existing two points, meaning that Ship C now has to apply four points to establish the tractor?
5) Can you 'switch off' negative tractor power? For example, in the example above, the unfortunate Ship B suffered a lot of damage at the hands of Ship A, and an allied ship, Ship D, wants to tractor Ship B away and out of danger. Does Ship D have to apply more tractor power than Ship B's neg tractor power, or can Ship B 'switch off' [and thereby lose] his negative tractor power?
Sorry, missed these after getting work under control.
I will send these in to Steve, but not until after he gets done with Briefing #2. If he changes anything, I will make a followup post.
Quite frankly, I don't think it ever occurred to anyone that a ship holding another ship under tractor would perform an Emergency Deceleration. Well, if someone wants to try, then, yes, Ship B suddenly starts to control the movement, and will have a base speed of 8.Kang wrote:1) Ship A is Speed 24, Ship B is Speed 16. They are both move cost 1.
Ship A tractors Ship B and, because it spent 24 points on movement, controls the movement of the linked pair. So far, so good.
Ship A now performs an emergency decel, for whatever reason.
Who now controls the movement? Ship A did spend more points on movement, even though he later got some of it back [for shield reinforcement only], through ED. And if Ship B controls the movement, speed will be 8, yes? because his baseline speed is reduced one level...
OK, I will have to check with Steve, but I am of the mind to say that if you tractor a medium asteroid while moving faster than base speed zero, the tractor will break on your next move, just as with a base (5D3b). To move a medium asteroid, you must tractor it at base speed zero and pay for acceleration (at eight points of energy per hex). That should fix most of the "towing medium asteroid" questions.2) What is the upper and lower limit for tractoring terrain features? You cannot tractor planets or moons (5D3a), but you can tractor asteroids (6B5e) to tow them. I take it that asteroid hexes in and of themselves cannot be tractored; they're just dust and pebbles. So tractoring an asteroid hex would not slow your ship down, whereas tractoring a medium asteroid like in The Coming of the Meteor or like the Tholians do, will indeed slow the ship. Am I right here?
I had thought of it as more of an acceleration. So, theoretically, you can choose speed zero, tractor the asteroid, move one hex on impulse #2, drop the tractor, and be free to do whatever the rest of the turn. I suppose it would be more reasonable to require the tractor to be maintained over the whole turn, but I hesitate to do that. I think requiring the base speed zero will be restrictive enough.3) When tractoring a medium asteroid as in (6B5e), I assume that the 8 points has to be applied over the entire turn? Or can I apply the 8 points in one impulse and move the rock and thereby have done with it?
Yes and yes.4) If I'm being tractored early in the turn, and use negative tractor, does that negative tractor power stay with me for the rest of the turn even if I lost the auction? And can I add more power to the negative tractor later?
It doesn't say so, but, yes, you should be able to drop the negative tractor. If you do drop it, it is lost. You can't "turn it back on" later.5) Can you 'switch off' negative tractor power? For example, in the example above, the unfortunate Ship B suffered a lot of damage at the hands of Ship A, and an allied ship, Ship D, wants to tractor Ship B away and out of danger. Does Ship D have to apply more tractor power than Ship B's neg tractor power, or can Ship B 'switch off' [and thereby lose] his negative tractor power?
I will send these in to Steve, but not until after he gets done with Briefing #2. If he changes anything, I will make a followup post.
Federation Commander Answer Guy
Yes, I thought that was what it would be. Thanks!mjwest wrote:Sorry, missed these after getting work under control.
Now that would be a nice and clear rule. And it would break the tactic I was thinking of, which would be to grab the asteroid with a tractor in order to get a cheap decel.mjwest wrote:... I am of the mind to say that if you tractor a medium asteroid while moving faster than base speed zero, the tractor will break on your next move, just as with a base (5D3b). To move a medium asteroid, you must tractor it at base speed zero and pay for acceleration (at eight points of energy per hex). That should fix most of the "towing medium asteroid" questions.
Also clean and fair - and fits with the interpretation above.mjwest wrote:I had thought of it as more of an acceleration. So, theoretically, you can choose speed zero, tractor the asteroid, move one hex on impulse #2, drop the tractor, and be free to do whatever the rest of the turn. I suppose it would be more reasonable to require the tractor to be maintained over the whole turn, but I hesitate to do that. I think requiring the base speed zero will be restrictive enough.
5) Can you 'switch off' negative tractor power?
Turn off=lost, yes, absolutely. Thanks.mjwest wrote:It doesn't say so, but, yes, you should be able to drop the negative tractor. If you do drop it, it is lost. You can't "turn it back on" later.
Cool. Thanks for all your hard work on this, Mikemjwest wrote:I will send these in to Steve, but not until after he gets done with Briefing #2. If he changes anything, I will make a followup post.
Ok, another question if I may.
A ship is under tractor from an enemy ship. Can the tractored ship, at some point later in the turn [or even next turn], attempt a counter-tractor, the winning of which auction would then give him the control of the beam?
In other words, does a counter-tractor attempt have to happen when the enemy's beam is first attached, or can it be initiated later?
A ship is under tractor from an enemy ship. Can the tractored ship, at some point later in the turn [or even next turn], attempt a counter-tractor, the winning of which auction would then give him the control of the beam?
In other words, does a counter-tractor attempt have to happen when the enemy's beam is first attached, or can it be initiated later?
Before answering your question, I want to point out that "counter-tractor" only applies when two ships are trying to tractor the same thing. When a given ship is fighting off a tractor attempt on itself, it uses negative tractor. (Of course, once it wins with negative tractor, it can turn around and establish a tractor of its own for what would be the same power cost.)
To actually answer your question, yes, negative tractor can be used at any time, not just when the tractor is established (or over the turn break).
To actually answer your question, yes, negative tractor can be used at any time, not just when the tractor is established (or over the turn break).
Federation Commander Answer Guy