Federation Commander

Fair enough

mjwest wrote:
A few points:
1) Whatever happened at 2010 Origins seems to have pretty much convinced Steve that no "fix" is needed.



I was at Origins 2010, I don't even recall a player bringing plasma, so I can't say what convinced SVC. I certainly did not play anyone with plasma.

I would not bring plasma to a competitive game unless I simply wanted to test to see how how long I lasted (and that might be measured in turns, not necessarily in # of game victories).

Plasma in a tournament game: IMO is nearly a lost cause if your opponent is roughly equal in skill and has played a few games. Kzinit are more dangerous. Others can theorize all they like, but I have playtested MANY tournament games with plasma. On paper they seem dangerous. In practice they lose 9 out of ten times, maybe more.

Here is the key problem for plasma: If you fire too much plasma at your enemy, he simply runs, takes a little shield damage and comes back. Meanwhile you are short on torpedoes while you re-load. If you don't fire enough, he maneuvers to take a plasma hit on a non facing shield, gets to overload range and kills you. Finding the perfect balance point is difficult.

Improving the first turn arming status is a nice, but small step. I haven't tested it out yet so I won't speculate.

Speed 40 Plasma - too fast. (Yes I'm speculating here)

I think for those doing some testing, check out using enveloping plasma and see how things turn out. It may be another incremental improvement.

If you are losing to plasma more often then not, then you are doing something wrong. People don't need to die needlessly from plasma torpedoes, there is a cure, find help.

On paper enveloping plasma sounds great, a little more damage to beef up that torpedo. In practice it only helps the Gorn and the ISC. The PPD benefits greatly from the extra shield damage and the Gorn with their horrible turn mode can start bringing down shields. This will unfortunately not help the romulans one bit. Spreading my warhead damage over 6 shields is more of a help to my opponent then a hinderance.

I agree. I am always working to get one shield down and get damage in. Unless you have a fleet surrounding, then maybe you would do it, if you chose to split your fleet up.

Could I suggest a simple fix (2 words) for Romulan ?

Add :"Except plasma" in the restriction on firing weapons while cloacked. After all if you can launch Plasma when the launcher is destroyed why cant you launch it when cloacked ?

Wont solve the problem with hitting with plasma nor the fact that plasma have a too hard time hitting but will make the romulans and cloacking a bit better, more logical and thematical choice and a bit more fun.

If rules for envelopers were to be done, one option could be to look at the only weapon in FC which currently has a fully enveloping aspect; Hydran hellbores.

With that weapon, each hit per shield (or PA panel facing) is treated as a separate volley. (PPDs do something similar, only spread over a smaller array of arcs.) If a plasma enveloper were to be written up in the same manner, a large enough EPT would have the ability to score burn-through internals against all six facings once it hits, even if none of the facings are fully breached.

In other words:

*an R hitting a six-shield unit within 4 impulses of launch, or an Andro within 7;
*an S hitting a six-shield unit within 2 impulses, or an Andro within 5;
*a G hitting an Andro within 4 (a 40-point enveloping warhead would be too weak to do so by itself against a six-shielded target, but two Gs in tandem could if they hit at the same time within 3 impulses of launch);

would each cause at least some internal damage if the opponent chose to take the hit.

In SFB, where the use of leaky shields is optional, and ships have more reinforcement options, a ship could have an easier time absorbing an enveloper without suffering internals.



Also, I double-checked the EPT rules in SFB, and it says there that the Romulans first cooked up the system in Y162; so, if EPTs were to be brought into FC, the Middle Years ships in Briefing #2 should not have that option.

Launching plasma while cloaked: NO, and do not bring it up again.

Patrick: Matt and I were just talking about that. If anyone could test a plasma race at Origins 2011, it would be you.

I appreciate you taking up the challenge. I look forward to reading your after action report on that.

OK, just so we have a common ground to work from ...

If you want to play with envelopers, it would work like this:
- Can only make G/S/R torpedoes enveloping.
- Cost to make a warhead enveloping is the same as the last turn of arming. This energy is applied at the point of launch. This can be done to a held torpedo.
- Warhead strength is doubled.
- Damage is applied as evenly as possible to all of opponent's shields. Defender applies points (and so chooses where the "odd points" go).
- Each shield (or PA bank) is indeed a separate volley (as Gary points out). Units without shields just take full damage.
- I would have to look up various special cases. For now, ignore them.

The point of this is not to endorse the idea (or argue against it). The point is simply to give a starting point to talk from so we all know what "enveloping plasma" means in Federation Commander.

wedge_hammersteel wrote:Patrick: Matt and I were just talking about that. If anyone could test a plasma race at Origins 2011, it would be you.

I disagree with that. Patrick doesn't believe plasma works. Having some who doesn't believe plasma works fly plasma and lose doesn't really prove much.

Rather, we need to have someone who actually believes plasma can work in the tournament go out and do it. (Obviously, there is someone who goes to Origins who believes plasma is fine. They were the one(s) who talked Steve out of the idea of any changes. I don't know who that was (or were), however. That person(s) is the one who needs to fly plasma at Origins.)

Not really related to the subject, but I find the imagery amusing that the Gorn CL which was down to its last frame and had only about 5 total boxes left, mostly shuttle boxes, was still able to launch all its plasma torpedoes and kill a nearly full strength Kzinti BC.

These torpedo tubes certainly weren't made by the lowest bidder...

Do Plasma Sabots (speed 40) in SFB cost extra energy to fire? I have a very outdated ruleset and have the updated version on order.

Yes. In SFB plasma sabots are a refit that can be applied on or after Y180. There is a BPV cost and an energy cost when firing. If "speed 40" plasma is going to be implemented in FC, I imagine there would NOT be an extra energy cost. I would expect that it would simply be "plasmas are speed 40, not speed 32". So, I don't think how plasma sabot works in SFB needs to have a direct bearing on how "speed 40" plasma would work in FC.

Thanks

I'll take both EPTs and sabots.

Monty wrote:I'll take both EPTs and sabots.

And then no one will fly anything but plasma ships ...