Federation Commander

Yup they can be 2 turn armed as noted. However, that means downgrading your weapon in order to do something other weapons can already do (fire on turn 1). If you think plasma is in need of help already then that doesn't appear much of a counter argument, unless of course you also think they will realistically get something much more potent to compensate.

I am not sure we need to change their arming cycles because it seems a rare occurrence where a plasma Ship Fires on Turn 1 anyway

Given that you currently cannot fire a G, S or R on turn 1 no matter how much you may want to I find that argument rather odd.

I'm not usually going to want to fire my primary 3 turn arming weapons in their weakest (damage and 'range') mode just so I can get a turn 1 shot. I'm not usually going to want to attack full on on turn 1 to fire only normal Fs either, when I could wait for a full load on turn 2. I might do either of them if the enemy has forced me to fire (or goofed up monumentally), but I'd be surprised if many people did it by choice.

I'm not saying that firing plasma on turn 1 would be the order of the day, just as it isn't for 2 turn armers either. It would, however, be a choice just like it is for 2 turn armers.

Don't forget, it is not the just the act of firing that is important. The threat of firing provides tactical choices and changes the way opponents act. All other ships can currently tootle up to the middle of the board saying 'my big guns are armed, do you really want to mess with me punk'. They may even have power for some overloads. To a large extent all a plasma ship can do on turn 1 is say 'Do I feel lucky'.

Even if the 2 turn armer does not fire, he has been able to threaten that shot and achieve a positional advantage. He can even take an impulse 8 shot against a plasma ship keeping at range knowing that he only has 9 impulses before he can fire again, and that the range the plasma ship kept at provides some defense during that time.

Even if the plasma ship didn't fire on turn 1 you will only be left with holding cost on turn 2, which in turn allows you to be more aggressive.

Against a number of races who may be coming straight at you to get in some shots (disrupter races, PPD, Andro, Orions) it allows you to actually be reasonably counter-aggressive. Even an S launched on 8 of 1 allows you start rearming straight away, as well as maybe giving the other guy something to deal with before he gets to shoot again, making it a little harder for him. These things may not happen or be needed, but at the moment you get no serious choice in the matter.

Note I'm not trying to make plasma races more potent per se. I was pondering why they are denied some choices in the first 2 turns of the game, unlike other races, for no obvious reason. Equally I was pondering tourney style time limited games where the long arm cycle and later initial launch disproportionately disadvantages them in my experience.

I would also add a note that fudging the plasma rules themselves (e.g. faster) doesn't necessarily compensate for the tourney issue, you are still quite possibly left with just 1 good shot and not enough time to properly reload and line up for a second shot. Whereas 2 turn armers can often be reasonably sure they are getting 2 shots off, and 1 turn armers are even better off relative to plasma if they can't get a meaningful second shot.


Allowing the ability to arm on turn 1 doesn't require any new mechanics/rules. It just requires that plasma gets a rule that other multi turn weapons basically already get.

I'm not going to say that they absolutely need it etc, but I do think such a change would appear beneficial. I would also say that for a game that appears to sell itself to some extent as a 'fast playing, slap your ships down and get blowing each other up' it appears rather odd that plasma races were left with their primary weapons still arming.

storeylf wrote:All other ships can currently tootle up to the middle of the board saying 'my big guns are armed, do you really want to mess with me punk'..... To a large extent all a plasma ship can do on turn 1 is say 'Do I feel lucky'.

Love it

My issue with Dal's 32+1 idea is that it is a more drastic change and one which would introduce clutter into the otherwise fairly simple and elegant impulse/subpulse system of FC.

The two turns of loading completed approach is simpler and more incremental, which will make it less likely overshoot the objective of bringing the plasma empires into better balance with the other empires.

JimDauphinais wrote:My issue with Dal's 32+1 idea is that it is a more drastic change and one which would introduce clutter into the otherwise fairly simple and elegant impulse/subpulse system of FC.

The two turns of loading completed approach is simpler and more incremental, which will make it less likely overshoot the objective of bringing the plasma empires into better balance with the other empires.

What cluter we already have 16+1 24+1 all I am thinking about is 32+1 there is no clutter here. You would move a Extra Movement at the start of a Impulse for a total Movement of 5 per Impulse.

Okay lets look at Plasma F Bolts vs Standard Disrupter and Standard Photons. I am not seeing a issue here...

Wpn Cost Range To Ht Damage
Disr STD 2 5-8 1-4 3
Phot STD 4 5-8 1-3 8
PlamaFBolt 5 6-10 1-3 6

The differance is Overloads which Plasma do not have. This is where the Speed 40 Torpedoes would start to come into the forfront.

I'll happily take part in a discussion on other issues plasma may or may not have, but can you take it elsewhere please, and whether bolts or faster plasma is the way to go. There are other threads you can add those comments to.

Whilst some may see starting the game fully armed as some way to go towards fixing 'broken' plasma, whether you start a game fully armed or not and the effect that has on a game is a somewhat seperate issue. As anyone reading those other posts will note, I do not fall into the plasma is 'broke' camp in that sense, I am posting this cos' I do think the start of game arming is a bit of a downer for plasma ships, especially in time limited games.

storeylf wrote:..... I do think the start of game arming is a bit of a downer for plasma ships, especially in time limited games.

Especially since because the earliest full-power plasma launch can only be on Turn #2, the next full-power launch from the same tube will also be correspondingly later, i.e. not until Turn #5.

Also beyond just the timing (first full power launch turn 2, 2nd launch turn 5) is the mind set that not having fully armed weapons imposes on one. Not having fully armed weapons forces me as a plasma boat to give up the middle of the map without a fight simply to arm my weapons. I have some experience with tournament play (though admittedly with SFB rather than FC) and holding the middle of the map is decisive. Without any other issues plasma may or may not have, forcing the loss of the middle of the map on a player at the start of a battle makes a player play from an inferior starting position every single game. Would anyone want to have to start every game against the Federation at range 8 on turn 1? Of course not this would unfairly favor the Federation Photon. Then why are we penalizing ALL plasma boats by starting them without there main weapons armed?

While speed 40 plasma’s would be an interesting idea I agree with storeylf that another thread would be a better location to have that discussion. I would love to join in with that discussion as well.

Discussing ONLY the pre-game arming issue raised by Storey, is there anyone who does NOT think it is a good idea?

Personally, unless a scenario is directed as being surprised, see no reason why all multi turn weapons shouldn't be charged to start with --

I mean, how long would you know there's another ship in the area, especially a fleet/squadron of ships --

Since FC is about simplification, it would help with that ----

mjwest wrote:Discussing ONLY the pre-game arming issue raised by Storey, is there anyone who does NOT think it is a good idea?

On a floating or location map having plasma armed is actually better for both players as there would be much less reason for the plasma player to just avoid engagement for 1-2 turns.

I am not in a position to comment on tourney map play. I've not fought enough of those to have an informed opinion.

FWIW my local gaming group hates the FC weapon status rules. SFB-style rules would have actually been simpler--particularly with the phaser capacitors being eliminated from the game:

WS 0 - Nothing armed. Batteries empty. Ensign Rand's skirt wrinkled. Etc.
WS I - First turn of arming on all weapons. Batteries full.
WS II - Last turn of arming. Zero hold-cost heavy weapons (ESG, PL-F, etc) armed and held.
WS III - Everything armed and held at players discretion.

mjwest wrote:Discussing ONLY the pre-game arming issue raised by Storey, is there anyone who does NOT think it is a good idea?

The idea of giving plasmas pre-game arming similar to photons, etc. seems like it could be a good idea to me.

I have not playtested nor analyzed this issue in detail though.

Anecdotally, I have had great luck with Feds against plasmas:
On turn 1, I set my baseline speed to 0 or 8 so I can dump most of my power into fully overloading my photons. I can do this since I know that I am not in danger of plasmas on turn 1.

On turn 2, I move at speed 24+1 have a good chance of getting to striking distance on the plasma ships and fire on turn 2. Then any of my ships targeted by plasmas can usually turn/HET away at the last possible instant and run away with the plasma(s) trailing at range 1. At this point my photons/phasers have usually done far more damage than the plasma ships phasers only.

Having pre-game arming on plasmas might prevent this favorite Federation tactic against plasma ships and may force the Federation to move at a reasonable speed on turn 1. Would this now change the balance too much and make the plasma ships too powerful against the Federation? I don't know.

I think it's an excellent idea that Storeylf has come up with, particularly the option of either having the old option with one turn loaded and batteries full, or two turns loaded and batteries empty. That way they're not getting everything for nothing.

Changing the subject slightly, but still on the subject of choices:

Bolo_MK_XL wrote:Personally, unless a scenario is directed as being surprised, see no reason why all multi turn weapons shouldn't be charged to start with --

The thing with that is that some captains don't want to have their weapons already charged, for their own tactical reasons. Again, a choice issue....so long as you have the choice to begin with weapons not loaded, that's cool.

If there is a rules change on either of these points, would it also be the time to address the odd little quirk that you either have to have all your multi-turn arming stuff loaded, or none? That always struck me as a little odd....although I know it was thoroughly discussed in this thread - http://preview.tinyurl.com/363h3tz - if there is even a whiff of the chance of a change to the plasma rules then the whole picture needs to be taken into account.

marcus_aurelius wrote: Having pre-game arming on plasmas might prevent this favorite Federation tactic against plasma ships and may force the Federation to move at a reasonable speed on turn 1. Would this now change the balance too much and make the plasma ships too powerful against the Federation? I don't know.

I thought about Feds quite a bit. I don't think it will be to powerful. It won't usually prevent the Feds doing the speed 8 turn 1 thing. A lot depends on how far apart you start. Starting in the corners of the map as the current tourney rules provide means a Fed is pretty safe. No matter what any other ship does - there is just to much distance to cover in turn 1 for anyone wanting to charge a slow Fed.

Under the 2009 rules it was potentially a little nastier for a Fed doing that, depending on who got the corner. But the 2009 setup was a bad tourney setup putting 1 person in a corner, and the other in the middle of an edge.

Even if the Fed did find such a tactic no longer viable, woud that mean plasma was to potent, I don't see the Feds doing the speed 0/8 thing all that often, clearly other tactics work as well.

Of course, for a tourney, it is for the tourney itself to account for such factors in its start positions.

Personally, I prefer the positions Scoutdad started the PBEM games with, 1701 and 2630. Even there a Fed would be safe from plasma as long as he avoided advancing out to the middle, but could find himself getting quite hemmed in by an aggresive opponent, who will only be paying holding as turn 2 rolls over.

Either way though the plasma ship can set speed and charge out into the middle of the map knowing that he can be fully armed just like his opponent might be, and launch if the opportunity presents itself, or affect the opponents movement based on the threat to do so.

I'd agree though, get a number of people test it out. I can't personally imagine we are going to go from 'plasma is broke' to 'OMG, I wuz PWND by plazm, NERF m'. I expect those saying it is broke and useless are still largely going to be saying that, their arguments aren't addressed - you can HET, run, and phaser it down.

Kang wrote:I think it's an excellent idea that Storeylf has come up with,

I make no claim to have come up with the idea, I'm sure I've read elsewhere it being mentioned, probably amongst the other plasma threads.

I would also change it so that plasma can be 2 turn armed for 1 size smaller instead of just F. So G tubes can be 2 turn F, S tubes can be 2 turn G, and R tubes can be 2 turn S.

You may even want to allow F tubes to arm 2 turn Ds.