Federation Commander

Itharus · Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2016 5:40 am Post subject: Me Too! Hellbore edition.

Can someone clarify this for me:

I was looking at ESG rules, specifically the anti-hellbore mode and noticed at the end that it says Me-Too! firing applies to both ESG and Hellbore users.

I'm a little confused by that.

Does this only apply during Anti-Hellbore use? Ie: If a hydran fires a hellbore at a Lyran with ESG's ready to rock, and the Lyran uses his ESG to mitigate the hellbore - the ship that fired said hellbore can fire additional hellbore at the Lyran at that point (assuming they have them available)?

Or does it mean that any time a Lyran sets off an ESG (any usage), a(ny) Hydran may fire a hellbore at it (if available)?

How does this work, exactly?

Thanks!

mjwest · Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2016 1:08 pm Post subject:

Me-too only applies within the framework of the rules. So, irrespective of anything else, a hellbore may only fire at the normal portions of the turn. Therefore, the ESG me-too only really applies in the hellbore/anti-hellbore exchange.

So, yes, if a ship with four hellbores fires one at a target, and that target raises an ESG to protect against that hellbore fire, that ship may then, at that point, decide to fire one or more additional hellbores at the target knowing that all are now guaranteed to hit. In fact, if there are more than one hellbore ships, then the others could decide to jump in, too.

And, if the side with hellbores does add more hellbore fire, the target ship can decide to use an additional ESG (assuming any were available) to block more of the hellbore damage.

So, yes, in a fleet, anti-hellbore usage of ESGs can actually be quite counter-productive. (At least for the targeted ship.)
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Itharus · Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2016 8:18 pm Post subject:

That's so weird that it makes me wonder why they even bothered with an anti-hellbore mode o_O

mjwest · Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2016 8:41 pm Post subject:

It provides tactical flexibility.

If in a small squadron or single ship encounter, it provides a decent defense against hellbores (weighted against the auto-hit thing). It does make it more dangerous to do in large fleets, however. But, even in a fleet, it can be used as a feint to try and entice killing/overkilling a minor participant rather than focusing on the major ships. And, if a ship is gonna get hammered regardless, it is a little extra help it might not otherwise have.

It's there and it's an option. But that doesn't mean it is always a good option.
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Itharus · Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2016 4:16 am Post subject:

Are you sure the me-too firing applies to all the ships in this case? I really thought it would only affect the ship that initially fired the hellbore.

Reasoning: anti-hellbore is a whole special little phase of defensive fire specific just to ESG that happens concurrently with a single ship initiating hellbore fire upon the Lyran ship in question - volleys are done by ship (and the ship has to resolve before moving to the next), no? Just feels wrong that an exchange between two individual ships would open an opportunity for ALL the hellbores, especially given that ESG are effectively "instant" duration pulses - rather like a phaser shot in FC. How would ships even see the pulse, calculate targeting, and fire the hellbores in the incredibly brief time span it takes for that sphere to pop out to adjacent hexes?

Maybe I'm just misunderstanding things... but it almost feels like Me-Too shouldn't apply in a defensive fire situation just for sheer wonkyness. If the ESG persisted, as it does in SFB - I'd totally understand it. But the window of opportunity here is just so tiny.

mjwest · Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2016 1:58 pm Post subject:

None of this happens in Defensive Fire Phase. This is all in Direct Fire Phase. Yes, hellbore volleys are handled oddly, but when firing, it all happens in the Direct Fire Phase along with all other weapons fire. So, a hellbore is fired just like every other direct-fire weapon at the same time as every other direct-fire weapon. And, since anti-hellbore use is directly in response to hellbore fire, it also happens all in the whole Direct-Fire Phase.

And, since 1E4 (me-too) is all about players, not ships, I figure it applies to a player's forces, not just a single ship. Obviously, only ships with hellbores apply, but it is still the player, not the ship.
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