Federation Commander

[djdood]

Well, the ISC also had the advantage of not having been ravaged by the General War.

It shows just how exhausted the mainline Alpha Octant powers were that the ISC (with their powerful but not remotely numerically-dominant fleet or economy backing-it) was able to "subdue" everybody else for a while. Everybody, except the ISC, had lost a lot during the war. The ISC strode into the wreckage, mostly unchallenged, as everybody was too busy licking their wounds and getting ready for what they thought would be "round 2".

As soon as the Andromedans started showing up in-force, the ISC "pacification" crumbled like a house of cards and everybody had something more dangerous to worry about than each other.
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[Nerroth]

The point I was trying to make is that the Concordium had (in F&E terms) become an economic match for the Klingons by the early phase of the General War - with 151 EPs to the Empire's 142.

Indeed, if you take out the outer ring of ISC provinces - the ones they claimed from 2568 to 2572 - that would still leave them with a healthy 133 economic points.

Plus, all that off-map real estate would be a major asset for the Concordium, had they been dragged into a war on their western frontiers.
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FC Omega Discussion (v3)
FC LMC Discussion

[Stele]

How about the Seltorians?

I guess it would make sense to compare them to any group committing genocide.

[Dan Ibekwe]

The Seltorians are committing genocide in revenge for the wrongs inflicted upon them; the most obvious historical real-world parallel would be the joint Narn and Drazi bombardment of Centauri Prime.

Oh, hang on a minute...
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We are Hydrans! NO ONE LIKES US!

[terryoc]

The Seltorians are ex-slaves taking revenge on their former masters out of anger and fear. I don't think the Seltorians correspond with any real-world nation. Except the Seltorian Tribunal faction of Seltorians (the ones in our galaxy) are possibly the Palestinian fanatic radicals who continually attack Israel.
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"Captain" Terry O'Carroll, fourteen papers published including six best of issue
"Man, Terry, you are like a loophole seeking missle!" - Mike West

[DorianGray]

Seltorians are also non-humanoid right? Aren't they also pretty hard to reason with since they want to the Tholians and then kill everyone else after them.

Generally, do Seltorian want to kill everyone or not? They don't seem to really be a species that can be reasoned with much like the Androemedians.

[Dan Ibekwe]

The Seltorians aren't any more dementedly aggressive than anyone else in the Star Fleet Universe, and for the most part are not immune to reason.

However, the Selts do have history with the Tholians. They were genetically engineered by the Tholians and used as cannon fodder back in their mutual home galaxy (Messier 82, I think).

Eventually, the Seltorians revolted and wiped out the Tholians in M82. A few groups of Tholians escaped, including those that settled in our galaxy; a couple of centuries later, a Seltorian fleet arrived here to finish the job.

These Selts established a working relationship with the Klingons, based on a shared desire to expunge the Holdfast. When the last big Klingon attempt to do this failed, the Klinks decided the Seltorians were surplus to requirements and eliminated them instead.

However, there might be another Seltorian fleet on the way...if so, it will wish to have words with the Klingons, as well as settling the Tholian issue.
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We are Hydrans! NO ONE LIKES US!

[djdood]

I'll add to that and say the Seltorians are indeed crazy-hating of the Tholians, almost to the point of non-reasoning. They are on what amounts to a religious crusade to eliminate the Tholians in out galaxy (having exterminated their former masters in their native M81 galaxy).

As-noted, when it's anyone one other than the rocks, the Seltorians can and do trade and ally, when it suits their purposes.
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[terryoc]

The Selts are very single-minded about killing the Tholians, and don't really "get" that other species don't hate them as much as the Selts do. Remember that the faction that arrived in our Galaxy was the Seltorian Tribunal, the most radical faction. They are very single-minded about wiping out the Tholians, to the point of even attacking when they are not ready. See the story Web Of Deceit in Captain's Log to see more of the Seltorian POV. Other factions presumably aren't so determined to see all the Tholians in the universe dead, they won't be unhappy to see it happen but as long as the Tholians are no longer a threat to the Seltorian species they aren't willing to chase after them either...
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"Captain" Terry O'Carroll, fourteen papers published including six best of issue
"Man, Terry, you are like a loophole seeking missle!" - Mike West

[Nerroth]

When it comes to real-Terra comparisons, one I like to go with is the ISC (at least in certain eras) with the European Union.


The ISC went through centuries' worth of conflict, involving all five planets, in the era of non-tactical warp. However, once tactical warp emerged - changing the terms of any military engagement, but perhaps more importantly shifting the focus away from economic competition over the hotly-contested Resource Worlds - the five governments slowly moved from peace to co-operation, then from an alliance to a political and economic union.

Indeed, in starship terms, I'd see the onset of the first unified hulls as akin to how countries like Germany, the UK and others have adopted the Eurofighter for military purposes, and have developed Airbus as a means of developing civilian craft which the member-states would have struggled to work on separately.


Also, in political terms, at some points I'd argue that the ISC has more akin to the balance one might find between the larger EU member-states than one might find in the Federation. The UFP has a lot of member planets, but even the larger members (like Earth) are only so large as economic or political powers - akin to, say, California or New York in the United States. In contrast, the EU has several large and influential members at its core, with co-operation such as that between (West, now unified) Germany and France being one of its key driving forces.



And in terms of a wider outlook, the EU has a formidable power economically - not least with the growing influence of the euro as a global currency - but is less of a force militarily than the US. Indeed, as in the ISC, the EU has grown out of a wish to avoid past conflict, with populaces that are less military-minded than Americans might be.

(Or rather, there's more of a difference between member-states. Countries like France maintain strong militaries, but others like Ireland maintain military neutrality.)


EDIT: One other note I wanted to mention - the motto of the EU is United in diversity...

...which, in Latin, is In varietate concordia!
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FC Omega Discussion (v3)
FC LMC Discussion

[DorianGray]

Real world comparisons are silly because no one in the world can actually compete with the US militarily or even to a lesser degree economically.

The Star Fleet Universe is about a balance of power between competing Great Powers.

The best comparison has to be Europe 1914.

[Nerroth]

I would question part of that assertion.

The EU as a whole is quite comparable to the US economically, even if the European countries of 2010 are somewhat more sporadic in terms of their form and degree of military spending than the Americans would be.

I'd argue that the difference, in military terms, between the ISC and UFP pre-Y160 is not entirely unlike that between the US and EU today - in that there would be less of a perceived need militarily or politically for the kind of pan-European spending and research that would be needed to more closely approach that of the United States.

One might paraphrase an old quote I read in an Irish newspaper, and say that cutting the welfare budget to buy more ships would not wash well with Concordium voters...

...at least until the shock of contact with the Gorns and Romulans obliged the ISC to start spending some serious EPs on its armed forces.
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FC Omega Discussion (v3)
FC LMC Discussion

[Hod K'el]

I have been following this topic for a while and have decided that terryoc, nerroth, and dorian have no real world comparisons since none exist.

The game and the races within the game are science fiction. The emphasis on fiction, as in not real.

By the same token, I also think all of you have valid viewpoints for action within the game. That is to say, why a certain race would do a certain thing.

I think this is the reason that I would perfer the Kzintis to act more like Kilrathi; more like a real hunting cat than a Tiger with human compassion.

Game wise, we humans have more in common with the Klingons (OS & TNG) than the Kzintis. I think we would have joined forces with the Klinks to eradicat [deliberate mispelling] the Kzintis. This may have forged a bond which would have helped against the Tholians, Lyrans, and even Hydrans. This would have left western expansion for the Klingon Empire and coreward expansion for the Federation.

To think the Federation is one big happy family (forgive me, Ricardo) begs the question, who is blowing smoke up whose yahoo? We can not get along on this planet, so now we are all going to get along when we go into space? We thank all three of you for that insight, an insight with which I agree. But whether I agree or not is not the issue.

It is still a science fiction game and we each get to try our hand at running an empie, or a fleet, or a ship, etc. We each get to have fun with our imagination. We each get to have fun with others that want to do the same thing...have fun. That is what makes this game so great.
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HoD K'el
IMV Black Dagger
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Life is not victory;
Death is not defeat!

[terryoc]

Hod K'el, it is science fiction and as you say, is not real.

Some parts of the SFU are INSPIRED by reality, however. While the comparisons are inexact, they are there (and this has been stated by SVC and SPP, for example, The Tholians are inspired by modern Israel, the Klingons are a combination of Stalinist Russia and the Third Reich, and so on.) That's what gives the SFU a lot of its verisimilitude, that they behave as real people do because it is based in part on real cultures and the decisions that real people made in the real world. So I'm not saying that the Seltorians "are" Hamas, I am saying they are like Hamas in certain respects and you can understand the Seltorian attitudes to the Tholians by looking at the real-world inspiration.
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"Captain" Terry O'Carroll, fourteen papers published including six best of issue
"Man, Terry, you are like a loophole seeking missle!" - Mike West

[Hod K'el]

Terryoc...thank you for reinforcing my statement.